Red Rum Club

Sean O’Neill: I’m Sean O’Neill, and welcome to my weekly podcast where I chat to the key figures who ship and lead their industries. Today my guests are Fran and Joe from Red Rum club.

Joe: I got sacked for stealing burgers from my last job and got into five grand a debt just trying to stay afloat so I could dress like a wombat in America and jump around on stage. I live a ridiculous life, you know what I mean?

Frank: But I can’t wait till AI, in the next five to ten years, comes and takes everyone’s job, because that’s what’s happened to musicians over the last two or three years.

Sean O’Neill: Explain this. Weight lifters or athletes push themselves, weeks peak, weeks before, come down into a period, taper off, and just hit 60, 70% of what they can do until the event. But I think it’s even as much in your mind, not just the physical side.

Frank: Yeah.

Sean O’Neill: Which, you know, use guys is a lot of it has to be.

Frank: Well, yeah, that’s. I think we’ve got pretty good. It takes time, especially with, like, the way you’re talking about sports stars and stuff. The difference with rockstars is it’s late at night and there’s other chemicals to compete with. Yeah, if you like. So, like, the whole rockstar, like, sort of lifestyle, you have to go through that and learn how to — How to manage that. I think we’ve all got to a point where we realize what’s a good. How to make the most of our gigs and tours. Like you said, like, when you’re playing in competitions, the early gigs, the early rounds, you’re good. Very similar to us.

The early rounds were good too. Like, the early gigs, if we’re well practiced, we’re good because we’re nice and fresh. It gets to day five or six where maybe you’ve had three or four nights on the aisle and you’ve had one big night out because you mate from, you know, over who lives in Glasgow or pick Glasgow, because it always happens there.

Joe: My mentality is different with it. Don’t me — Like, I feel like I get better towards the end. Like, towards the end, you’re the sensible one. But it’s not. No, I’m not that sensible. That’s the thing. I messed up. Taught the Olympia was bad last year. I nearly totally messed it up. But I feel like the bit where I’m out of myself is like the bit before when we’re, like, practicing that and that’s like, that’s the pressure time for me, because if I’m not hitting in them, practice, it doesn’t. When you get to them gigs, like, I almost feel like the difference between musicians and athletes is when it comes to the events, the athletes don’t enjoy the event, but they. They enjoy the after the event, when they can look back over and go, oh, I achieve well there.

Whereas our reward is the event itself, almost like, that’s where we’re just like, oh, this is the payoff. And so you almost don’t really care about the performance at that point because it’s like. And then maybe when you watch it back, you go, oh, I wasn’t quite good. Now. I wasn’t good. And that was flat there and stuff. And watching back is almost a bit. You always want to forget it.

Sean O’Neill: Do you always watch back?

Joe: Yeah, we’ve got a neurotic guitar player who won’t let us not watch it on the bus back, don’t we?

Sean O’Neill: On the bus?

Joe: Yeah.

Frank: Instagram or whatever. And you’re like. And they’re like, have you read that? Like, and there’s people talking great nights and whatever, and I’m singing flat. Or, you know, Joe misses.

Joe: We’re the wait for it because, like, we’re so out in front and the mix and stuff. Like, we get the most note and we get the most air crap for it. Like, we have to put a ban on him after the tour. After every gig, we have to put a ban because someone. Because there’s six of us, there’s always one of us who hasn’t had a good time. You know what I mean? He’s had a bit of a stinker. And they’ll moan at the end and it’ll bring the mood down a bit, and then when you’ve got, like, about three weeks of tour left, it’s just like, nah, you can’t be doing that. You can wait till the next morning if you want to criticize someone, but of the night, it’s got to be.

Sean O’Neill: But is it that even I can imagine when I’m a supporter of someone or a group or anything, because you love them, you let them off.

Joe: Yeah.

Sean O’Neill: I think that is why you’d be more critical of yourself than the fans would be. They’re just delighted to see you.

Frank: Yeah, but like Joe said, it’s the lead up. The rehearsals is like, get as good as you can in rehearsals, and then even if you do slip, the slip won’t be as bad on tour, if you know what I mean. Like, you’re just like, okay, that’s a bum notebook. I’m well-rehearsed enough to carry on or what, like that sort of thing and the emotional connection of the music. Like, you know, you’re playing some. Some people’s like, favorite song that is very meaningful and nostalgic in their head. So they’re gonna love it anyway. You know what I mean? You’re there in front of them doing it. So there is that emotional thing.

I suppose the athlete comparison is the only thing is they can fail and it’s a total failure. It’s like, oh, no, he hasn’t won the title or he hasn’t, you know, that’s that sort of. And there’s not really emotional or as much I know there is players. I’m just talking. I’m thinking Ron Oak Sullivan I’ve not just watched. I’ve not long watched the documentary there. And there is an emotional connection there. But they’re very rare. Messy win in the World cup. There is emotional thing there for the people, but it’s. But it’s not very. It’s not very common. Not as common as, like in a game of music.

Joe: Like, I think it’s funny as well because, like, people expect because it’s music and everyone, like, enjoys it and like, it’s healing to a lot of people. I think when they look at us sometimes and we’re a bit like, we come off stage, even sometimes, like, we come off stage too quick and we see people and I. That was great. And you’re not always that happy about how you played. And it comes off quite another site. What you talking about? And it’s like you’re making a big deal out with something. It’s like, yeah.

Sean O’Neill: Have you ever gone off stage and go, all of you thought we were just great tonight?

Joe: Yeah. Yeah. We do give ourselves back as well. Like, I think it’s one of them, though. Again, it’s okay making a mistake or doing something wrong, but it — If you haven’t prepared and everyone else can see that you haven’t prepared. And like, you get that thing on tour, like, if you’re not quite there, you know, everyone knows exactly when you came into practice. Cause you’ve got CCTV in the room and everything.

Frank: No, that’s just a mistake. Rather than actually, that was. You’re not prepared for that bit. You’ve never got that bit nailed down. You haven’t practiced it enough, whatever. And it’s very rare that we have those. Cause we hold.

Joe: Yeah, not anymore. It used to happen quite a bit, though, I think, when it was hard. Because we’ve always been like a proper working band. So, like, we don’t. We don’t really live the life of a musician or anything. Like, music’s probably.

Sean O’Neill: The youth have kind of grown steadily, haven’t you? It’s not like being, correct me if I’m not right, but I would imagine because you have known each other for so long, you have grown together and used to be able to make slight tweaks and adjustments and help each other.

Joe: Yeah, I mean, it’s been gone about eight years now, hasn’t it, in this formation?

Sean O’Neill: And, like, how did you actually get together?

Frank: Joe was like, the final piece of the jigsaw. Me and Tom are cousins. We just played. I got a guitar for Christmas and Tom was like, I’ll get a guitar for Christmas, too. We ended up jamming. Mike and Simon, friends from school. Neil, the drummer, went to my school and we were all just playing in pubs and clubs in town, in Liverpool, and in, like, around our area, Crosby and Waterloo and bootle, playing, like, shows just for, like, ale. And then Mike sort of asked all the best people out of the bands he knew and was like, do you want to come and jam on that? And we got together and it was just better than anything we’ve ever played before. And we’re like, oh, that’s great.

We had, like, a two, a year or two, got a manager, a guy down in London, a manager who’s in Liverpool, and a manager down in London. The guy down in London, after about six months of working with us, said, bands aren’t cool anymore. You need something different, you need something new. And then Mike bumped into Joe in a pub and was like, Joe was like, I play trumpet. You want to come down and jam?

Joe: And then we used to play, like, me and Mike used to be like. We used to have, like, battle of the bands between schools, and, like, the first year we were, like, competing against each other, and then the second year, he just came to support us because he wasn’t allowed to do it twice in a row because it had to be all inclusive and stuff at school. Just nice, like, all that stuff. Like, I think the schools pushed us a lot at that time to be into music, like, because we all had facilities to practice and we all had, like. I’m guessing Neil must have been given a drum kit before he started, like, or something, or in the.

Like, I always thought the music stuff in school was great and it. That kind of pushed me, being in the band. And I went away for a few years. Me, I went to Huddersfield, did uni and that, like, because I wanted to get away from Liverpool for a bit. Just that was a bit of a. You always feel like you want to get away and then you realize that like home is actually the best of the — It’s the best of the bunch. Yeah. It’s not greener at all.

Sean O’Neill: I wanted to get away and realize that Liverpool was my home.

Joe: Yeah. When I arrived here. Yeah, exactly.

Sean O’Neill: Never wanted to leave.

Joe: I think it is a compliment to the city. Like, I think it is a great place to live. Like, I think sometimes you just want to rebel a little bit when you’re a kid and then when you’ve got your head.

Sean O’Neill: I remember hearing that the Liverpool is the fun pound. And if you think Liverpool’s huge on music, huge on football and lots of people love to come here for the weekend and I didn’t really understand it. I came here probably at the right time in my early twenties and I just, just. Everything okay? Not every city is perfect, but for me it’s, you know, it’s an incredible city to you, you know, find your way, especially as you’re young. This may be unorthodox as I wasn’t big into school and I always thought there’s another way apart from going just to school. And obviously I found my way, which wasn’t easy, but I found that Liverpool has, you know, it feels like there’s hope for all. Music is a prime example.

Joe: It’s got a flag to get behind, doesn’t it? Like, I think you can. A lot of people like relate to each other in the city because they all have the same passions and follow the same, well, teams and bands and get behind anything that’s from the local area even if you’re not like originally from it, you’ve made it in that area, you know, I mean, like the amount of people who like, don’t even come from here or just very like very patriotic to it, aren’t they?

Frank: There’s a clean, there’s a clear identity of Liverpool of like, like you said, the music, the sport, the nightlife, that all within like the a very small geographical area. So it’s all, it always feels busy and something going on and sometimes I say like, you people in the twenties, we’ve just been walking down there and just students everywhere. People will be able to like sort of live this really cool, exciting, creative life and once it gets older then it’s always got to be, you know, you’re always going to compare sort of that city that’s the feel of this city compared to others.

And there’s not many places in the world. We’ve traveled America four times now going back for the fifth time, we haven’t really put, you know what, New York’s got a hustle and bustle, but hasn’t got, like, a feel, like, creativity.

Joe: Places you want to live in, like, obviously, like, I mean, I’d always think like, oh, I’d like to spend a year there, but I’d always, in back of me, I’d be like, but then I’d come back.

Sean O’Neill: I remember hearing or reading about this guy, had, super wealthy, successful guy, and he started saying about how expectation is greater than reality. And I find that the exact same thing. I’ve gone to so many amazing places and countries in the world and they are, wow.

Joe: Yeah.

Sean O’Neill: And by the end of the holiday, or I think, you know what? Happy to come back here and get stuck in, you go back. So then if I do well here, I can go and visit all these amazing places and do all the amazing things.

Frank: Just from like, a band’s point of view. The same sort of thing of like, we were always like, yeah, what we’ll do is we’ll do this. Every band has the same dream. We’ll go to America, we’ll play in New York, we’ll go to LA, we’ll do this, we’ll go to London, we’ll tear it up over there. And I’ve got, we’ve never had a better night out in Liverpool. Like, the top hundred nights out we’ve had have all been in Liverpool.

And I always say to everyone around the world, like, to me, LA’s amazing, New York’s amazing. Austin, Denver, wherever we’ve been in the world, we’ve been. But I was like, you can start at the top of the city by the cathedrals up here where we are, and walk until your feet get wet, until you get into the Mersey. Every day for a year, you never have the same night and you’d never like, run out of a pub to find. And you never have to say.

Sean O’Neill: We were engaging in some business, we were engaging in some possible joint ventures with an American company, a fund that wanted to come to Liverpool and invest. So they came to Liverpool and they had such a great time that the guy who was getting married canceled his stag do in Miami. And the very wealthy guy, he’s got his own jet, flew his mates here and we looked after them, me and my elders, a group of guys that they basically cancelled Miami to be here. And they came here and they basically said they had one of the best weekends, they all turned up with like.

Frank: The trunks of that. So green like that.

Sean O’Neill: It was summertime. So anyway. But yeah they had an.

Joe: Didn’t tell them we’re changing the course of flight. We’re not going to Miami, we’re going Liverpool.

Frank: So looking down, going there.

Sean O’Neill: So he’s got together. Your manager, George.

Joe: Yeah, yeah.

Sean O’Neill: And that’s how small Liverpool is.

Joe: Yeah.

Sean O’Neill: I was, one of my business partners mentioned that I was going to be speaking to you today. He’s head of sports science and John and I mentioned you guys and he says, oh, George. And he started. And that’s what Liverpool’s about.

Frank: Oh yeah, yeah.

Sean O’Neill: Just removed. He wants removed. But she’s got together and you’re looking after yourselves at that stage, is that right?

Frank: Well no, George.

Joe: George always like George was involved before.

Frank: Joe was involved sort of thing.

Sean O’Neill: And then five years in, George.

Frank: Yeah. And then the guy from London who was George’s partner, he got out of management. It’s probably. Well he said that he dropped us basically. That’s what happens. And then George stuck around. George stuck around. We got Joe involved and then George has just been there forever. He’s been the guy who’s just been like sort of driving a s***. He’s the sort of nice equalizer. We’re all — we’re each other’s all the time. And we’re always like, you know, either on tour or that. Sometimes we can get each other’s throats or get it or we can have like a debate of six of us. So very easily it comes to a three. Very often it comes to a three to three vote and George then comes in and gives a different perspective and then he’s just been, you know, with us forever. Just his energy and his passion is just the thing that like, sort of is infectious to us, you know what I mean?

When we get down ourselves, he goes, he comes in, goes, he’s joking at is he this, you’re doing this, you’re going back to merit, blah blah. And you’re like, oh yeah. And then, you know, when he makes contacts in the industry, when he’s the guy vouching for us, I think people just get that. It’s like, oh, like George is George just.

Sean O’Neill: I could tell by Dave smile how much he thought of George because he says George. And yeah, you can tell by someone’s body language though.

Frank: He’s forest. He’s lived a million lives.

Sean O’Neill: George must be a good guy.

Joe: Yeah, he lights up a room like doesn’t he like to meet someday? Yeah.

Frank: You’ll have to. Yeah, you never get a word in. Like.

Sean O’Neill: Who wrote the first song?

Joe: That would be. Was you free of face, wasn’t it, really?

Frank: Yeah. Mike had a couple of songs and he was like, got these songs and we learned and whatever, and then it just sort of. It’s a song called Cut the Rope, wasn’t it?

Joe: Oh, that’s before my time.

Frank: And then what was the first one with you?

Joe: You had about six when I joined, because I think you only kept two at that point for the album, though, which was a TV set song. Matador. Yeah. Matador was the one that made me think, oh, these can write tunes, like, so I know I fancy myself a bit of a big shot trumpet player, so I was auditioning them as much as they were. That’s always the line.

But now I could just see myself kind of, like, don’t know. I like that whole, like, grandiose bond sound that you had at that time. It was very much. That was the. Because it was all, like, trying to be cinematic and. Yeah, that way nobody goes video at that point as well. So I was watching that and I was like, these guys are trying to be cool, aren’t they? Like, not saying they were cool, but.

Sean O’Neill: Are you cool now?

Joe: Just always comment. It’s always funny, because when I was in union to see, like, I didn’t even know I was gonna be part of this band. But, like, when you small print, I’d watch, like. Like, I’d watch videos, because obviously Mike and I, we go meets him, and we were kids, and, like, we grew up all so close together, and so I’d see this band that they were in, and even one time, and you released a song, and it’s one I’d written with Mike when I was a kid, and I was, like, straight.

I was just in uni doing, like, my dissertation. I was laughing me head off because I could just hear this tune I had written, and he’s. Had just done a video for it, and he’s like. You were singing it. Yeah, yeah, jenny, it was. Yeah. And it. Mike still, to this day, reckons he was the one who wrote most of that. But I remember he turned up late to that session. So, yeah, I’ll be coming knocking for royalties when you re-release it like his own.

Frank: As a songwriter, Tom Soter become the guy. Then he was just like. He just come in, he’d go away. And I think his pack, we mike and meself, I think at that time, like, right, we need to write a song and we’d sit down and write a song. Tom would, like, just pick up his guitar in the bedroom and just go, I just wrote a song. And didn’t even realize he’d wrote a song. You know what I mean? They’d come in and go, I’ve got this thing. And we’d be like, that’s good that, you know, it was sort of just in him. Naturally, we’d have to, like, go, come on, we’re a band. We need to write songs. He was just, like, doing a band.

Sean O’Neill: How do you know you need to — Is there a certain amount that you have to do per year? How do you go about writing a song?

Frank: You don’t. It’s. It’s about you. It’s about. There’s no one way to skin a cat. You just do it, and it just becomes a thing. This, this. It’s art, and it’s…..

Sean O’Neill: Can you write too many songs? Can you actually, like, duplicate your time because you’re constantly writing and not perfecting?

Joe: Yeah, I think you can write too many songs if you’re planning to release them all, I think. But the whole point is to — I think the need for writing songs is the fact, you mean, you set yourself your own targets. And that’s, like, we obviously always wanted to get the first album ready, but, like, we didn’t really think we’d be ready until we’ve done about 20 or 30 songs. Because not every song you’re gonna write is gonna be great, is it?

Because, like, you have mistakes in you, and, like, some days you’ll like things and some days you won’t, and it’s the ones that you like day after day, where it’s like, oh, that one is actually gonna stay. It’s like, there’s so many songs that we’ve ended up recycling that, like, even from this new album now are still, like, from, like, album one, where the songs that we’ve rejected at the time, so we’re just like, ah, nah, they don’t work.

But then when you come and revisit them, you get that moment, inspiration. It’s like, oh, now I can see how we can make this work. And this riff, this makes sense if we do it in this way. And you create something that you never even thought you were capable of creating, really, particularly, like, houdini and that, like, in the new album, like, it’s just a very old riff that we had for ages. And Tom roll really crap. Caught us for it at first, didn’t he? And it was dead cheesy. And he’s ended up doing it into, like, one of the deepest songs that, like, he’s probably ever written.

Frank: Lyrically, the motivation of songwriting sort of has changed over the — Over we. For Matthew, we were just writing songs, good songs to get signed. We were just like, let’s write some songs. A dead catchy chorus which will get on a radio and a record label will go, yeah, we want that. We want that. We’ll have that.

Sean O’Neill: Whereas now it’s like, that’s black and white. Cause people are just gonna buy the song. They’re not gonna look into you as a following or in the early days or. These guys have energy. Let’s back them. It has to be the song.

Frank: It had to be like a guy in a boardroom, person playing, going, that’ll go, radio.

Sean O’Neill: It’s emotional. Completely taken out of it.

Frank: There you go. Yeah.

Joe: We even dressed in black and white at that time. Wear any colors. We kept it like a big. It was banned uniform for three years where you weren’t allowed to wear any color. Like. Like, when I first joined, wasn’t. I had just come back from Thailand.

Sean O’Neill: Made them rules.

Joe: I want to say. Yeah, was you, wasn’t it? I could. I just got back from Thailand. No one I kind of knew they were taking it quite seriously. I don’t know why I did it, because I knew it would annoy you. But I was wearing, like, them. Like, you know, they’re like, yeah, the proper, you know, like the parachute ones. You get entirely hippie ones traveling that you pay, like three quid for, and they kind of fall apart after about two weeks of wearing them. I just thought before he turned up into band practice wearing them, we were just all going, it’s not going to wear that.

Frank: [Crosstalk] — Go get some skin.

Joe: I don’t know what we thought was it was like, if you like me playing after that, then it wouldn’t really matter. I don’t know.

Frank: And then you have to go to top man. Yeah. Get some jeans.

Joe: Yeah, yeah. Usually, like, you can. You can be in the band, but just when you’re around us, can you just wear black and white, please, when you’re around us?

Sean O’Neill: And then how do you actually take. Sorry, how do you actually take your holidays and you those. Because I’m thinking if there’s six of you, how much of the practice everybody needs to be together.

Joe: Yeah.

Sean O’Neill: Because literally, then you just have to nearly time your diaries.

Frank: Yeah.

Sean O’Neill: Time your relationships, time your family.

Joe: It doesn’t really work either, to be honest. When you’ve got day jobs, it’s really hard, like, we’ve set this thing now, haven’t we, where Wednesday is like the holy day. Like, you cannot book anything on Wednesday, even though our bass player is skiing right now, but he’s only the basis. [Crosstalk] He gets a pass.

But, yeah, like, Wednesdays are the days where, like, you got to keep that free. Or if you’re going to book it off, that’s when you can. You have to do it like a month in advance or something. But I like, honestly, if we try and do anything that’s not on a Wednesday now, it’s absolute mad. They’re like getting six people to just be coordinated.

Frank: And as much as, like, we do it, you being a band, and when we got. We got this point to be our own boss, to be our own sort of like, no, we’re in a band and we can be creative with. We don’t have to work nine to fives or whatever, but quite ironically, we’ve got ourselves where we’ve kept Wednesdays officially red room cup days. And we all get in at a certain time and we all go home at a certain time because that’s the way, you know, we wanted to be like, no, we’ll just turn up and we’ll play some songs and then we’ll get off. And it’s like, it doesn’t work like that. You’ve got to sort of still have a bit of a regimented sort of. No, everyone gets here, everyone gets on time, and we do our thing.

Sean O’Neill: It’s one thing that you don’t have to organize, done. It’s in — Yeah, you don’t have to think about it.

Frank: Yeah. And then the creativity happens in the — In those thingos, in those. And then you can have times on and off. So we’re currently getting into an album cycle. So the album comes out in three weeks’ time. Then we go on acoustic tour, then we go on a proper UK tour. Like, big, big, bigger shows, finish in the arena, then we go to America and May. So between that and then festival start. So for the next six weeks, we’re busy. So six months, rather. We’re busy.

So we are in our Wednesday, and now we’re even talking. Okay, we need another day. We need another this. So our time’s really, really tight at the moment. But then sometimes we do have, like, off weeks and off months where we’re just like, okay, we don’t need to be on Wednesday.

Do we swear that that’s be all right? But it still comes down to all six of us being disciplined and being like, okay, I know what a band. And everyone thinks that, you know, we all think we’re dead cool and all that, but, but we’re not. But you get in, you get to work and if you’re not in on time or you’re not pulling your weight and doing your thing, we’ll have to tell you. We’ll have to tell you.

Sean O’Neill: Is there other rules that’s outside the Wednesday how use?

Joe: No, but sometimes that can cause a bit of issues as well, kind of. If some people end up doing more of the work than others, it could be you just gotta, you gotta find your role, basically, because, like, I don’t know, it’s so, we’re so set in our ways that, like, I find it hard to find my role in the band sometimes because I think I’ll just practice loads and then that’ll give me my kind of thing. But you’re always under a bit of a microscope. If not because it’s just business, like, that’s the side of it now. Like, you can’t just enjoy the music. You can’t just be playing all day and just, you know, smoking weed and having, you know, jamming and stuff like that. You can’t be doing that because not the sixties. You’ve got big vat bills to pay in the end of the year and stuff like that.

Yeah, we found out the hard way and it’s why we kept our, like, day jobs, really. And at first we were maybe a little bit ashamed of that, weren’t we? Because it’s like, oh, you should be earning your living through, through the band. And like, sometimes I used to work in a bar in, and, like, it was a music bar. And so everyone used to come in a lot and they’d be like, what are you doing here? You don’t need to be working here like that. And I was like, f****** do need to be working here actually.

Because if I don’t work here, then I can’t do what I’m doing out there, you know? And because all it was is just building the business model. And ironically, I think until you’ve got that sorted, unless you’ve got, like, major backing behind, like, big labels or like, big spend to have on social media campaigns and, like, which you got to be really creative with as well.

Frank: I think it was quite, I think we’ve only just sort of realized this last two or three years with the band, we used to try and make a brand as well as a band. So we used to make like, red uncover this thing and with this, and we’re a band, and we’re here and we’re blah blah blah, where. Then very quickly, as the fan base grew and we got to speaking to people who knew the band, they didn’t see us as a band. They seen us as, like, six mates, and they knew more about us as individuals or just as much about us as individuals as they do the music.

So we stopped, like, trying to be a band and just be us. So, like, yeah, yeah, we’ve got day jobs, and it’s like, you can’t hide what we are. You know what I mean? So I think that. And that realness comes over in sort of everything that we do now.

Sean O’Neill: So you just did use social media, all of you?

Frank: Yeah.

Sean O’Neill: And you saw. And you all just portray your own lives as you do and then some with the band.

Joe: Yeah. I mean, we don’t show off the day jobs or anything like that. You know what I mean? But we never hide the fact that, like, I don’t part of our images that we graphed, like, isn’t it like that? We just were always working towards making know a life that we enjoy, I suppose.

Sean O’Neill: Because I think one of the. One of my main quotes that I say is that everything is temporary.

Joe: Yeah.

Sean O’Neill: And whether you have huge money in the bank or you believe in the future, you can have. It’s temporary, your energy’s temporary. What will probably hold you together and sounds like it is, you know, your values and the fact you value each other is something. And that’s quite hard for, like, from a business side of things, as you just say, VAT comes in and all these expenses and all the effort and things that you. I call it the contingency of life hits you.

So if everybody talks about the, you know, the add sauce on whatever pound it is, if it’s a million pound, believe me, if it’s a million pounds, by the time you pay your taxes, by the time you pay your vat pay, they have your expenses, and by the time you split the money, it’s 50 grand each. Yeah, but it’s a million quid, so use it all.

Joe: Yeah.

Sean O’Neill: And it’s the same. And, you know, I worked out one day that if I was to keep one or two pennies from every pound that I transacted, so 2% maximum of all of the money I ever touched, I’d be an extremely wealthy guy.

Joe: Yeah. Yeah.

Sean O’Neill: Because that’s living. That’s everything knocks the pound down, doesn’t it? It comes out of your pocket.

Frank: Yeah. Like, and we’re finding that, like that. The weddings, this is where we have to sort of, like, separate the art and the band and business, in a sense. Like, Wednesday is a creative Wednesday. Like, okay, let’s all get together. Let’s write some songs, and we even design t shirts that we’ve been doing today, deciding, like, our, like, the image of the t shirts that people are gonna buy and hopefully wear and represent for us. That’s all done on a Wednesday or picking guitars or writing songs, rehearsing, whatever it is, then all the other days are okay, that invoices come in, need to send that, all that sort of thing. And it’s. I think it’s a, especially in the band, especially in the music industry, it’s underappreciated or sort of not really.

Sean O’Neill: Misunderstood.

Frank: Yeah, misunderstood of, like, how things like that happen. And we’re just lucky, the six of us, so we can share the workload, and we’re all pretty well driven, and that we’re able to manage the other six days of the week. The actual business side of things, the actual life, you know, the real life stuff, we’ve managed to manage it.

Joe: I think what drives us as well is, like, you say everything’s temporary, like, but, like, the gigs are temporary. Like, the time you have to do this kind of thing is temporary as well. Like, so if you’re gonna get bogged down with all the business side of it and get a bit upset by it, then you’re just gonna miss out on the good times that you’re here to do. You know what I mean? Like, we get to do. Get to do the arena, like, this April, and, like, last summer, when we got that big bill, we were like, sometimes you kind of are even gonna get to that point, you know what I mean? But you just. You have to get to that point, otherwise you don’t get to do the arena.

And that’s probably why not many people have done it from our level, you know what I mean? Like, because it’s. It’s literally very, very hard to do, and if you’re not motivated or prepared to just take a few of them hits, you know what I mean? Like, it was crazy last summer, wasn’t it? We were meant to be having one of the best tours in America, and, like, it was a big financial crisis for the band, and we had to be, like, before.

Frank: Two weeks before big — Big bill come in, we were like, what?

Joe: Yeah.

Frank: Like, no, no. Two weeks before we go to America for three weeks, and we’ve got to travel from west to east.

Joe: So I pay some of the stuff for that. As well. Yeah.

Frank: Huge, huge expense for the band. And then this expense basically come when we had some money ready to do it.

Sean O’Neill: Something was just missed on the business plan.

Joe: It’s a learning curve.

Frank: Yeah. It was partly our fault, partially miscommunication with the account and stuff like that. But it was just a, wow, what are we gonna.

Sean O’Neill: So logistically, is that for the likes of George comes in or.

Joe: No.

Frank: Yeah, it’s a case of we sort of — Kate had to, like, move a few things around and work some things out, and St. George come in and the accountants also come in and work together. But we were very much in the conversation, driving the conversation, probably like, we’ve just had this George, we need it. And so George was like, okay, let me do his thing, and we do our thing. You know, if we’re ever gonna. If we’re ever gonna fall out or break up as a bandit probably over something like that, rather than, like, creative, like, sort of.

Sean O’Neill: That’s how most businesses or partnerships or even relationships finish. But I think on some of the lessons I’ve learned, like all businesses or partnerships that start off, you have to be a bit of everyone to get by. You have to be the accountant or the logistics guy or the operation. You just have to because if you were to pay for all those services just wouldn’t exist. So I’ve been there. And as the businesses have grown, I realized that I am not the best person for doing almost any of these jobs. To the point I actually sit and wonder what I’m actually good at.

Joe: Yeah.

Frank: Yeah.

Sean O’Neill: What’s the point of me doing anything? I’m like, how did I even get to here if I’m no good at anything? Or over the years of — And it’s not easy, but I do try and get the best people to do every single part of the job. And what I do to tell them is, when they ask me a question, say, do I need to know?

Frank: Yeah.

Joe: Yeah.

Sean O’Neill: I — Straightaway — Because I do realize that it’s back to what we said at the start. It’s your nervous energy, it’s your thoughts, it’s your creativity. It’s your — If there’s something in your mind that can trigger, you know, from your past, if you’ve ever, you know, which a lot of us have. But if you’ve ever been in a really difficult financial position where it’s close to bankruptcy or you just have no money in your pocket and you can’t feed yourself or you. You’re used to stories of your grandma and telling you, them. If you sit around that table and you discuss how we’re going to get across America, there’s a huge bill coming, could ruin your whole day, your whole week, or even the future of the band, future of your business.

Frank: That’s quite funny what you say about when you get to a level where you realize you’re not the best person for the job, for certain jobs and you go, there you go, there you go, there you go. That’s quite funny, quite ironic. It’s quite. You can transpose that across to like the music and being in a band. So we’re just doing exactly what we done four years ago and the crowds are getting bigger and bigger and bigger and we’re like, yeah, we lack, like, are we, like, we’re playing the arena, you know, there’s gonna be what, 9000 people in the arena and we’re like, are we worthy of 9000 people? It’s like, like we’re just doing the same thing.

Sean O’Neill: You’re doing 90.

Frank: Well, yeah, but we’d be doing the same thing. We’d be like, no, we just go in, we rehearse and then we turn up, we sound check, we go and then we play and we do the songs and I do my stupid moves and Joe does this trump a bit and then we walk off stage and it’s like, well, is that really.

Joe: It’s a problem, isn’t it? If you overthink it, it’s like what you were saying about your tournaments before. You’ve only got so much and once you burn out, that’s it. And I think like, particularly when we talk about each aspect of business, when it’s like you’ve got to be the accountant, you’ve got to be like strategist, marketing, all that. And like if you don’t want to know sometimes, because if you do know everything and you get involved in everything, you will burn out and it will cause like a problem. Like you need to kind of be able to switch off at one point.

Sean O’Neill: And that’s where to be fair. Joint ventures, partnerships and some of the best people you’ll ever meet in your life. Because if you haven’t got the money to do or pay for these services, you can sort of say, well, if you help me here, I will in the future do X, Y and Z or even help you now. Yeah, I have trade-offs between getting the best people to do something for me because I couldn’t pay them and I will be able to reward you. It’s not always money.

Well, if you go back you know, before money was invented, it was. You traded potatoes for carrots, didn’t you? And everyone survived. Yeah. And I, you know, I do understand the financial part of the business is huge, but ultimately it’s about getting the result.

Frank: Yeah.

Sean O’Neill: However you get the result. And it’s also rewarding that you can then collaborate or you can. You can find another way. There’s always another way. Apart from only financial, I had, I did a mentorship session yesterday with a guy that has created a business, is starting to get some really good traction. But he can’t afford 50 grand of services a year because he needs his accountant, he needs mentorship, he needs all types of things. He says, well, what value, what 50 grand of value can you give to these people to get you past the next year? There’s advertisement, there’s a banner, and he’s — I never thought of that. There’s exposure.

Joe: Yeah.

Sean O’Neill: There’s just, if you like what I do, please support me. And when I want to make a few quid, I’ll pay you. You know, if you. If you’re able to just get the best people around you at what they do, it can catapult you into that and then the stratosphere and how, you know, how you see your own value?

Frank: Of course.

Sean O’Neill: You’re worthy. You’re worthy. 90,000. 90,0000 irrelevant to the amount of people that want to watch pay for you if you’re gonna end up being the same guys doing the same thing.

Joe: You know, I like the fact it’s taken us about eight years to get to this point because it means you can build your close circle up very gradually.

Frank: Yeah.

Joe: And you get to know people and know who’s the trust and who can help you, who can help you out. Not in like a manipulative, not manipulative way, but just being part of the team who, like you say, they get a value out of the services they put in and they can enjoy it with you. And, like, it creates quite like a team. It becomes more of a team rather than a business. When you look at it in that way.

Sean O’Neill: These are all quit your jobs one day, one day at the same day, you’ll be right. I’m gone.

Frank: Right, see you later. And then six months later, we’ve all that.

Joe: I’m scared me when we do, because it’s like, are we actually, like. You’re gonna have to put time in somewhere else. You know what I mean? You can’t, because we got to keep that graft off. Otherwise, I think that’s when it’s game over. Otherwise, if we’re not doing anything, we’ll just get lazy.

Sean O’Neill: So how do. How do bands fill their time? Because there must be individuals that prefer to do more singing, do more writing, do more exercise, do more partying or business. Business or — And that’s another thing. Taking take on possible new ventures to diversify.

Joe: He just explained every one of us individually there.

Frank: Yeah, it was all like, Tom would probably, if he had to, if the day ever come. He probably spend more time writing songs. He probably spend more time with Defoe.

Joe: He likes, I just, like, see image side of it a lot more now as well, doesn’t he? Like, he’s gone into that lately. Like, he’s always wanted to be creative and if he’s — I don’t think he’s stuck in any way, but, like, he’ll move. He’ll move between just to keep his creativity quite high. Like, he’ll do the image stuff when he’s maybe a bit stuck on the music, and then he’ll have that to inspire and he’ll inspire that to go back to the music when he’s a bit stuck in the image, like.

Frank: So he’ll be doing songwriting or, like, graphic design, whatever he is. And he probably work with different artists, get young bands in, or young artists, singers, songwriters, and going, oh, this is what you need. This what you have to do, and diversify in that way.

Joe: Our party guys. Skiing right now.

Frank: Yeah, party guys.

Joe: He’s fitting his drunk in the alps somewhere.

Sean O’Neill: So I had Keith Mullen from the farm on last week.

Joe: Yeah, good guy, Keith.

Sean O’Neill: And he told me about the amount of money they had, the sex, drugs and rock and roll lifestyle that they enjoyed. And I suppose in hindsight, maybe they might have blown up as much of the money as they did, but looks like they enjoyed themselves.

My perspective and so many other perspectives out there that, as you said before, you guys are minted. And do you, do you feel sometimes that if you were born 20 years earlier and had created what you created, do you feel like you’ve been slightly hard done by not being in that time, or do you just. Are you sort of content or does it.

Joe: It’s a fun thing to look at, I think, realistically no, because I think if you start looking that way, like, obviously you can get lost and you can have the poor me where it’s like, oh, we didn’t get that opportunity, or, and, like, it’s quite a similar thing that happens with this generation when it comes to, like, buying property and stuff. There’s a lot of — There’s a lot of people who are a lot worse off or haven’t got the opportunities that the previous generation have had because of the government for the last 14 years as well.

But I think for us, I’ve always, like. I know, I like, I’m working in a coffee shop at the moment. I got sacked for stealing burgers from my last job and got into five grand to death just trying to stay afloat so I could dress like a wombat in America and jump around on stage. I live a ridiculous life, you know what I mean? But you can’t. It’s one of them. It’s funny. It’s something to say at parties, isn’t it?

Like, I mean, I look at some of these new bands who are like, they’re coming in, they’re getting the number one record, like, straight off the bat because they’ve had all this stuff given to them and they’ve had this kind of, like, what you’d imagine most bands were getting in the nineties and eighties, where it’s like big budgets, you know, and like, you know, they’re getting everything thrown at them and they’re going to be a star and then they get that and they’ve got this album because that’s what got them to be in a star.

And then it gets released and then afterwards they have that come down and when you’re not used to them, like, come downs, like, you’re not used to breaking down on the motorway at five in the morning and having to sleep in the service stations until one of us gets an AA membership sorted so we can call someone out. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, if you’re not used to these pitfalls, like, you kind of have a bad time because they are like, the amount of times you probably broke down and cried in this band, like, not in a nasty way, just like, because it’s so ridiculous sometimes.

Frank: Like, have we got it?

Joe: Just a big release of like, oh, my God, I can’t believe some of the things we have to do here.

Frank: I was saying the other day, I said to me dad, I was talking to my dad and I said, I can’t wait till AI, in the next five to ten years comes and takes everyone’s job, because that’s what’s happened to musicians. Five years or two, three years over the last two or three years. I’m all for art, being free and all that, but the iPhone and the streaming services and all that, they sort of took music in a different way. I pay for Spotify membership. I love the fact that I can find music everywhere, anytime from all over the world, you know, at a few clicks, it all.

But it also hurts me financially in the fact that no one buys albums or very few people buy albums and vinyls anymore. So the financial sort of foundations of the music industry have just dissipated. So, you know, it’s hard and there is bands who still get the sort of major nineties sort of money, but then most of the other, most of the industry now is built on people just doing DIY things and having their own, having their own path. Making their own path. Whether you’re a social media sort of creator and, like, you’re a big artist who does their songs on social media, whether you like us, like a big live band who people buy tickets to go and see because they want to.

Joe: See six so much in the last five years. You look at Spotify and it was great and all that, and it’s good. Still like it. You know, I’m not bashing Spotify. I think it’s a great platform. But, like, even now, I’ve just seen, like the last couple of days, you, you can pay Spotify directly now for adverts, like, to advertise your album, which obviously the people with money are going to be well, more able to do, like, majors.

And it makes it that little bit harder for, like, people like us who are kind of, obviously we have, we have support from a label and stuff, but, like, they’re a smart label. You know, they, they want us to end up with a wage at the end of it rather than just a big load of debts. A lot of these bands, like, that’s the difference now as well. Like, people got, like, royalties back in the day and now I don’t even think they own even like, 5% of, like, their, their art, you know what I mean?

If you take the route to these major labels, because I’ve heard of these people who, like, they get a bit of a wage while they’re on tour, but then afterwards they’re kind of thinking, oh, we’ll get our money at the end of this campaign, and they’re not. And so they’re there and then they are kind of living that, like, that lie of, oh, yeah, we’re super successful and all that, whereas, like, we’ve never had to portray that because we’ve never ever had that treatment. But it must be really hard if you have had that treatment to then have to have that downtime and kind of like, you’re still in the limelight but you’re not getting any more.

Sean O’Neill: There’s lots of stats. There’s lots of stats of even lottery winners.

Joe: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Literally like overnight success.

Frank: I do think something has to change because it’s good. The people who in the future, if there’s no immediate payback, if there’s no immediate sort of like, here’s a new song, put it out, or new album, put it out and get. And everyone, or a good enough amount of people pay a tenner and the artist sees a return sooner or later.

People who have to go out and work for a living and can’t be supported financially by their parents or other people or record labels or whatever, they’re not going to create music. And sooner or later it’s gonna have to be like the only people who will be able to create music are the people who can afford to.

So the people who can have a year off and have someone else pay the rent on their flat or their studio time, or it’s gonna be a government subsidized sort of thing, like the balleters or the operas at the moment where it’s like, oh, no, he’s a good songwriter, him. The government’s gonna pay him to write some songs for a year or whatever it is. So there needs to be some sort of shift somewhere. But hopefully, you know, we’re saying things are bad now in comparison. Nineties, it could get a lot worse, I think.

Joe: Anyway, it is now, though, like is in. If you’re gonna start a band, like, what’s the best way to start a band? It’s like, have money, because if you have money, you can spend time doing the band rather than having to spend time getting money so you can do the band, you know, I mean, like.

Frank: You know, you’re always at a disadvantage because you’re having to split your time between supporting yourself.

Sean O’Neill: I’ve always imagined music is that sort of. You have it in your heart and soul and you’d be happy eating beans and toast for years.

Joe: We waited for a bit, weren’t we? I think happy to anyway, still eating the beans on toast.

Frank: But people take advantage of that. Like, people take advantage of that. Like, oh, no, you’re just gonna write songs anyway. We don’t need to pay them.

Sean O’Neill: It’s maybe not a great comparison, but it’s like nursing in NHS, you know, the nurses, I think everyone agrees that they deserve a lot more, but they’re not gonna strike and walk out because it’s built into them. The cure.

Joe: Yeah.

Sean O’Neill: And then with that, the supply and demand is there and there’s no immediate pressure to say, well, nurses need 20, 30 quid an hour, which I think it’s unanimous. Everyone realizes that people, you know, who care and people look, especially when you’re sick, you realize, but, you know, back to the music is — I have a — When I speak to anyone that’s in music, they’re willing to go through dark times because they are passionate about what they do.

Joe: It says more about the financial state of, like, things at the moment, though, more than that, because it’s obviously, it’s like people want to do these things. Like you say, nurses, they want to help people, but at the same time they need to be able to survive, don’t they?

And because the imbalance is so big at the moment when it comes to, like, the austerity and the people who are, like, middle class and rich, like, it’s hard because you want to be that person, you want to be the caring person, but you need to be slightly greedy just so you can pay your rent, don’t you?

Like, that’s — I think that’s one of the most frustrating things with us sometimes. It’s like when I said, like, we can’t all get together. It’s because, like, one of us has got a shift or something and that person’s just like, they want.

Sean O’Neill: I don’t think working is greed. Paying your rent is great. We’ll let you off. I like your modesty.

Joe: We all want to be there, though. That’s what I’m saying. Like, we all want to be there for the music, but one of us is going, I’ve got to go and do this shift. And, like, the other five sometimes, like, oh, can’t you. Like, it’s about the music. Like, why aren’t you prioritizing the music? Like, works more important. It’s like, not works more important. It’s just living is important.

Frank: You talk about the nurses, the nurses thing, in comparison to the music thing, the austerity in the government, the whole thing around that is like, you can put a face to the people who are not given the nurses the pay rise. You can be like, no, no. If those people just done this thing, then the nurses will get more money. The catch 22, the music industry at the minute and the fact that sales or record sales have fell through the floor is faceless because it’s technology that’s, that’s like, that has sort of taken that finance stream away from artists and record labels and stuff like that.

It’s like this great thing that we use every single day. And it’s like, I love this love. I love going on TikTok and Instagram and Spotify and all that. And as a consumer, I love it. But then as a musician, I’m like, well, where am I meant to go with this thing? And that’s why I bring it back to the AI thing of, like, it’s going to be in five years’ time, ten years’ time, when everyone’s going, what are we doing? We’ve got nothing to do. We’re not getting paid for the things we’re doing because technology is doing it better.

Sean O’Neill: I’ve been really terrible of predicting any future, economically or anything, so I just try and stay the optimist at all times. Obviously there’s going to be a few speed bumps along the way, but I think, you know, we’ll get it’s there or we will evolve. So what do you think for yourselves then, after you finish, will you just continue to tour as long as you get a living? And are you just loving it to the point that, you know, how old are you?

Frank: What bracket?

Joe: I’m the oldest, Darnay, and I’m 32 next month. Yes. So, yeah….

Frank: Still have the energy.

Joe: And Tom’s still in the twenties, so, like, he’s our, like, token baby, you know what I mean?

Frank: He hasn’t got the energy, though, as he’s like.

Joe: I mean, to be honest, like, I think we’ll do it until, like, we. I think we’ll always do it until, I don’t know, we’ve always said, like, we’ve — We always want to be on the up and we’ve never, like, apart from, like, like I say, we put a bit of a — Maybe a bad spin on this. Like, we all love being in the band, you know what I mean? Like, it’s easier to talk about all the hardships because I think I put.

Sean O’Neill: A great spin on it, to be honest.

Joe: Yeah, I think.

Sean O’Neill: I think you come. There’s no bad spin. You just exactly said how you live your life and how it is on a daily basis.

Joe: It could be a bit cold sometimes because I think we have to just kind of, like, be focused because we’re so busy, but, like, it is great, so. And as long as we feel it’s great and we, the band has always grown. We’ve never had to take a backward step when it comes to, like, I think what we gauge on the main thing is live, because you can have as many streams as you want on Spotify. It will not fill a room because so much of it now is unconscious listening because you literally getting told even this day list thing now that’s come out this year, which is an AI driven playlist that will change four times in a day.

Now, it means you don’t even have to pick between, like, the playlist that you would have had in a day, like, the daily mixes now it’s just literally given to you and spoon fed to you, and you’re saying, oh, the algorithm knows what I like. But really the algorithm is also pushing songs that, like, other people are liking because it works on trends. So, like, all the music now is like. It’s like listening to the radio where, like, except for the DJ’s not saying the song name at the end.

So you don’t really know what you’re listening to unless you are a proper purchaser of music and you’re an active listener, where you know what you’re listening to. And so we find that a lot of our fans are active listeners, and therefore they show up at the gigs that we do like. So the audience grows and we’re getting thousands of people coming to our gigs now because they’ve been following us and, like, the brand, like, as we’ve put out. But a lot of these bands that get pushed by labels they, like, people might not even have.

Sean O’Neill: I have a feeling you’ll watch this back in many years from now and say, f****** h***, we did it right all along. We grew our fans, we stick to what we realized. You’ve gone against the grain, but it’s paid off.

Frank: Yeah. I remember when a guy down in London who told us, bands are on heart and gets new, I remember him saying something. I think we told George to tell him that we were going to do this thing. We were going to know, no, we’re going to stay as a band. And I think he wanted to change something about us. And his reply was, yeah, but that’ll take years. And I remember us all going, it’ll take years.

Sean O’Neill: I get asked so many times about business advice and go through the basic questions, and more times than enough after I say, well, just make sure you dedicate the next two decades to what you’re gonna do. And along the way, you probably change what you’re gonna do. And, you know, you sometimes get people looking at you saying, and I say, well, that’s what I’ve done. And I think the next two decades are going to be quite similar to the last two. Although I do know with that approach, it’s going to be probably a safer approach than looking for my black swan moment we’re overnight of…

Frank: Yeah, definitely.

Sean O’Neill: I’ve made it.

Joe: I don’t think that’s a healthy way of doing it either.

Sean O’Neill: It’s hard to — Someone offers you an unbelievable opportunity or your money falls in your lap or at work. Yeah, we all just.

Joe: Yeah, it’s whoa. We just accelerate.

Frank: And there is. And there is some like there is some golden gooses there. There’s bands that have that. They have the hit song on the first album and it goes like that and it stays like that for forever. But it’s one in a million and….

Sean O’Neill: At least using order.

Frank: Yeah.

Joe: You see them bands now a little bit as well and it’s. It’s almost a little bit sad, like, because it’s like they still try and bring out new art and like what they consider to be asked, but no one’s interested because they just care about that time when they were getting loads of money pumped into him. So they were everywhere and that was the image of them. It’s probably escape that image, like. And you know what? They almost look older as a band almost because they’re always being compared to that moment in time.

Frank: Like, it’s a good job we’ve got no hits.

Joe: Yeah, sick.

Frank: That’s what I think.

Sean O’Neill: Let’s talk about the new album.

Joe: Yeah. I mean, I suppose is the focus at the moment now, isn’t it?

Frank: Yeah. Comes out on the 23^rd February. I think we’re on for a good chart position this time. Yeah, I mean last time was good too, but this time it really has. It’s got to a point where we’re looking top ten, top five. If something happens in the next couple of weeks.

Joe: It’s a stock market, isn’t it? You know what I mean? Yeah. It can change week by week. All it needs is someone to announce a surprise album, doesn’t it? Yeah. Knocks you back a couple of places, but it. I mean the chart position, you all focus on it quite a lot. I just. I like what it brings. Like, everyone looks at these charts now and it’s. It’s like. Because no one buys albums after they’re out. Now it’s all about this pre order system and there’s loads of hoops to jump through for that.

Frank: Yeah.

Joe: And like you can sell a gig with. With albums as a ticket, but you can’t do it for some. It has to be a registered venue and it’s all very weird. And basically when the album comes out, it’s almost the end of the campaign once you get that char position because no one seems to try anymore. We’re like, because it’s so odds when people are releasing new music. All these pre orders come as the figure. It’s really strange because obviously you look back over, like, 15 years ago and it’s like, will they still be at number one this week, this album, this artist? And it’s not like that at all now. It’s just you focus on that one week.

Frank: It’s very much reflectance of….

Sean O’Neill: Could you buy all the albums yourself? Go to number one.

Joe: It’s been tried and it’s been debunked, people, I think, yeah.

Frank: We’re very sort of up to date with the regulations of this now. So I think every person could buy four. Every person can buy four. And then four counts as the album. If you buy a fifth, that doesn’t count for the album charts. And you can have. You’ve got. You’ve got to be. If you do a venue and say, you can buy a ticket and an album, you’ve also got to get. Give them a ticket only option. So you can’t be, like, conning people into going, oh, come and see us live, but you need to buy an album. Like, you need an album.

Joe: It’s all very strange.

Sean O’Neill: Funny.

Joe: It’s funny to watch, though. But I do think, like, I don’t like that side of it because I think it’s all a bit fake with that position. But I do like what it brings out of us as a band, which is like, all right, we have that goal to try and get a top ten album, and it gets everyone excited and behind the scenes and we start. Yeah, we get better ideas when our backs to the wall and we’re trying to achieve something like, more of, like, the contents, which is very important. More important now than it ever has been for any release.

Frank: DIY. The DIY social media thing is the only thing that we really got at our disposal to sell.

Joe: Yeah.

Frank: You know, that’s the only thing that we control. And we can portray ourselves and our art as good as possible because we’re fully in control of it. Obviously, someone else chooses whether you go on the radio, someone else chooses whether you go on a streaming platform, someone else chooses all those things. Whereas we can just be like, no, this is the song and this is how we wanted it to be, and there’s a video to complement it and whatever, so we just pushed that to its absolute Hilton. If something else happens, then great.

Joe: Basically, we got all the music done a year ago, and now we’re thinking about anything else but the music for the last year until it comes out and we get to play the songs live, and then we’ll think about the music a little bit when we’re doing that, and then, I don’t know. It’s good. It’s good to have new work as well. And just sometimes you can feel a bit stagnant being on the same because it’s the longest we’ve had between releases. This as well. Isn’t it like nearly two years since we did. Was it over two years? Is it over two years, November? Yeah, over two years since our last album.

So we didn’t want to feel like we were stuck in a bit of a rut. And it’s been nice because we’ve had a bit of a rebrand. Like, you can change yourself a little bit, you know, do yourself up, get back into the training and stuff, and just try and work on a bit of a different image. And I think the singles have been going down quite well with these ones.

Frank: Yeah, we’ve definitely, definitely seen a progression in fan engagements.

Sean O’Neill: From your story and everything you’re telling me, if I had a group of people and business partners and colleagues that had the long term goals in my early days like I do now, I know that that’s definitely a recipe for success. And to have you guys part of the city I’m adopted in, so I’m part of the city now, too.

But I think, you know, the values you share, the stories you share, the fact that, you know, Liverpool, as an economy, needs people like you that’s gonna be around for a long time and not gonna be the overnight success here today, gone tomorrow. And I think your night at the M&S arena is gonna be phenomenal. And I think that there’s definitely going to be big things for you.

And I’m glad to know you as people. I’m glad to be able to sit here and have a great conversation with you. And I think that you have brought through this podcast amazing value to those people that maybe just didn’t know you. I’m sure that will now set you on your way to even more success.

Joe: Fingers crossed. Yeah. We’ll see how the album does. Excited for it!

Sean O’Neill: For the people of Liverpool, the economy of Liverpool, your economy, and anyone that can get some lessons for this, I think for me, it’s been a pleasure and thank you very much.

Joe: Appreciate it!

Frank: Thank you very much! Thank you very much!